Living Covenant

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Welcome to the Living Covenant Podcast, where we journey through the messy human stories of the Old Testament explore what it means to live in covenant with a promise keeping God. I'm your host, Zanita. Let's dive in.

 Broden, welcome to Living Covenant Podcast, and thank you for coming. I know you've been in a busy season lately, so appreciate you taking the time

 Thanks for having me.  Looking forward to the conversation

Do you wanna tell us, just so people get a little bit of a picture as to who you are and what your life looks like, what has been keeping you busy in this season of life?

Sure. I'm currently serving as a pastor over in WA. I was at Livingston Church in Perth. But recently I've gone all the way down the bottom of WA to a little place called Esperance. So I'm serving there as the pastor and also looking after the school in a chaplaincy role.

I've never been there, but I have heard that Esperance has been voted the most beautiful beach in Australia. Is that right?

Oh, it's gorgeous.

You think you're walking into like a Disney movie or something, it's that crazy

 wow. Let me just add that to my list. Um, so aside from being in Esperance, you are pastoring and you're also a chaplain, and I understand you're also a little bit of an Instagram influencer as of late

Yeah, I am. And it's, it's beginning to become a bit bizarre, especially like just recently, for instance, I went back to Perth, and I had some young fella come up to me and wanna chat, and he's like, "Hey man, I follow you." And like it's happening more and more. So much so that even when I drove back from Perth to Esperance, like we stopped in this little... kinda like a servo thing anyway. So I was getting the kids some lunch, and some random worker guy in there was like, "Hey mate, are you on TikTok and Instagram?" And I was just like, "What the..." Like, 'cause we're out in the middle of nowhere.

You've even got the blue tick of approval, so 📍 that, um- ... that says something. 📍

Well-

You're legit.

Anybody could get that

the point in doing it. Well, tell us about what you've been doing on there, because you've been pretty open about a part of your life on there, which I imagine isn't an easy thing to do. But what kind of inspired you to get on social media in more of a intentional way?  

Well, I'll start with saying this. Very often in our church, especially as Adventists, I feel like there can be a bit of a stigma in how we should behave on social media. And I, I do believe, you know, we still need to be good Christians, and we still need to hold up Christian morale and all that sort of thing.

But often I think in a lot of minds, people think, unless I'm, like, preaching Jesus continually or I'm sharing Bible verses or I'm doing things like that, I can't be an influencer or I can't be this person of influence.  And I actually disagree with that very much. I think one of the greatest things people can do is actually  be that presence online in all different areas, whether it's w-maybe you like drawing or maybe you're a good s-singer or, I don't know, whatever your creative outlet is that you excel in, share that.

And that's what I do, but I'm doing it through weight loss and I'm just being open and transparent on the struggles of being my size. Um, but I guess the edge where it comes in is I'm not quiet about being a pastor and, yeah. And I think it's a place that a lot of Christians connect with.

That's really cool. I think you're right. It is encouraged to go on social media and, share your faith and, you know, share your devotional time and all this, but what's not often encouraged is just sharing, the messy, real, raw parts of your life 📍

there's a quote from a little old lady who said, "The most powerful thing a Christian can do is to be a loving and lovable Christian." And I think that as long-- whatever it is you share online, as long as you are a desirable person, you are doing a work for the kingdom. And I would love to see that stress a lot more to our young people and,

 yeah. It's interesting, there's this, idea in, like, social psychology. It's called the Pratfall Effect, and it's this idea that you're actually more likable, not when you're perfect, but when, you're able to, laugh at your mistakes or laugh at your failures or, be open about your lack of perfectionism and so on.

It's not often the people who are perfect who we, admire. It's the people who are honest or who give things a go or, you know- Mm ... are resilient with things even when it's difficult. And yeah, I think that's probably something we are afraid of showing as Christians in the online space.

Like you're saying, we try to- Yep ... show this, like, perfect life and this perfect faith and everything, which sometimes is probably hard to relate to for people on the outskirts.

yeah, totally. One of our problems that we have as humans is how much we care about what people think. And I think that's the space, like even knowing what you just said, and going, "Oh, as long as I'm being authentic and I'm showing  the sides of me that aren't perfect, people will like me more."

But there's still a part of you that cares what others are gonna say, even though it's gonna bring in a lot more love. And that's a space that I've wrestled with a lot. I had a mentor once say to me, though, he said, "Bro, no matter what you do in life, you're gonna be judged." He said, "You could be feeding the homeless on the street, someone's gonna judge you and make out like you're doing it for the wrong reasons."

Mm.

And he said, "It just-- it doesn't matter what it is, you're gonna get judged, so do what makes you happy." And, I'm not gonna go right into it, but I had a bit of a health scare. It was a neurological condition where half my body would go numb and stuff. But anyway, I actually lost the ability to speak. I got something what they call aphasia, where even though you think you're saying things right, it's coming out all weird. Very scary time 'cause I'm- I very much depend on my speech, which I know we all do, but especially me doing what I 📍 do.

And yeah, I feel like coming out of that, it was almost like, a slap to the face, and it was kind of like, man, life is short.

Live it. And that's kind of what has brought about this journey. Yeah

 mm. Awesome. One thing I noticed as I was looking at your page was that you've, invited people quite a bit to ask you questions. But you specifically say, "Be respectful and I'll be honest," which is awesome.

Yeah. I think it's also frustrating that that has to be said, because you would hope that respect would just be, like, a human baseline. But you talk about in your article that you've experienced this judgment throughout your life. Yeah. Not necessarily on social media, not necessarily out in the streets or at the servo or whatever, but, actually more so in the church.

And, you know, you've talked about and you mentioned already that you're a pastor, for a church that prioritizes or upholds the health message.

Yeah

 Yes. So what has that been like to kind of hold those two, positions, or To stand in that middle ground? How has that been for you, or what has your experience been like there?

Look, it has been probably one of the biggest struggles, that I think I've experienced. Hence why I wrote what I wrote when I do tell people to ask me questions and I say but be respectful. Purely because I get a lot of people that also struggle with health that come into that space, and I want to create a community where people are respected and are safe, and it kind of weeds out the people that don't wanna be.

And I think when it comes to my experience in the church, I've had people ask me what I weigh before asking me my name. And these are   vegan staunch health message people, in the church. But they came at me straight away, rather than shaking my hand and saying hi.

Like s- and I was visiting this place. As a matter of fact, while we were coming over here for this appointment, I entered into a church, sat down, and my wife was next to me, and a man tapped on her shoulder and said, "Is your husband a sumo 📍 wrestler?"  And then she turned around and just gave him a look.

Um, my wife's very lovely, but she's not afraid to speak her mind either. And then he tapped again, and he goes, "Oh, he's a big boy." And she-- And he just ke- he wouldn't stop. But the point is, I've been met with this to the point where I've also had an individual say something when I was preaching up the front, and he said to one of my friends, he didn't realize he was my friend, but he said to him, um, " Oh, that guy should be ashamed to be up the front representing Jesus looking like that."  So I've had a lot of hurtful things come my way. Um,  I'm not gonna... Look, just to keep it short, I'm not gonna lie, I just... I kind of now feel sorry for people like that.

Yeah, it touches on something that I think we'll probably get to later on, is this idea, I suppose, of like the sins that are external versus hidden.

In your article you talk about how it all kinda comes down to this one thing, which is labels essentially. Which- Mm ... you know, we all do all the time. Sometimes we don't realize we're doing it, we probably don't realize the effects that it's having on people. But how have those labels affected you, and what are some of the labels maybe that we typically will throw on people that maybe we don't realize are having such a big effect?

Yeah. I think there's a lot of subconscious level labels that we do. Look, it's, it's very broad, but it can come into skin color, it can come into gender, it can come into, one's looks, whether maybe it's a haircut that they've got and you think, "Oh, that's a-- He's got a dirty big mullet, like he must be a bit of a bogan."

Or maybe it's an individual coming in covered in tattoos, or maybe they've got piercings. Like we put labels on everyone straight away, and I mean, 'cause this is psychology, this is just how it is.  We typically make a judgment on somebody within the first five to 10 seconds of seeing them. That's what we do, and it's a human thing, and I think that, For me, my weight is obviously the first thing that people see.

So, that's where the label comes. But here's the thing too that is rough, is that we also have subconscious labels that we place on ourselves,  and we often focus on, "Oh, we should treat this person that way or this person that way," and not based on labels that we see them. But I think sometimes the stronger voice in terms of the labeling can actually come from within towards yourself.  And that something that I struggled with the most for a very long time. .

you know, it, it hit me when I was sitting down with my kids, and my youngest, he struggles. Um, not terribly or anything, but like he was just going through a season where he, you know, he thought, "I'm not, not smart, I'm not clever, and I'm not this." And I remember I was sitting there and I was saying to him, You can't say that about yourself."

And I'm like, "Just because your life is now, be kind to the-- be kind to yourself, you know?" And it, like literally I came out of that and I kind of had a bit of an epiphany and I'm just like, wow, like I can't sit there and say that to my kids, and when I'm alone just beat myself up.

 Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I would say that our internal dialogue kind of affects how we respond to what others say about us. Like, it's never nice to hear, people say negative things about us, but if we don't actually believe that thing, then we can kinda just laugh that off. I think it's when we do believe that thing and we already have that internal idea that we really struggle with it and it really gets to us.  Yeah

well, um, the individual that you chose to write about in this series, which people should know by the title of the episode um, is, is Rahab. And I'm always curious to know why people chose... And I know you talk about Rahab as having some labels. Was that the first thing that drew you to I guess exploring and unpacking and writing about her story, or was it something else?

Yeah, I definitely think so. I was raised in a very, conservative church. Beautiful people, love them to bits., Still very close with them and I still have a big heart for that place. But at the same time, there was a lot... There's a lot of things that I was raised with that I've looked back on now and I just think, "Oh, that missed the mark a little bit."

Um, I also am a very big fan of grace and the idea of grace. I'm a big fan of the idea of improving in life and God doing a work in us and making us new but grace has to be, lifted up, you know? And, I think that her story models that so well, and then when you look at the context and you look at her life and who she was,

Because I, I have, I, like, I wasn't a prostitute, praise the Lord, but, um, I was a drug addict and I was in trouble with the law back before I become, um, a Christian, and I've lived outside and I know what it's like to be an outcast or to be looked at, as maybe the scum of society. So that's why I picked her

  when you say you're a big fan of grace, is that something that you've always been a big fan of, or was there a moment in your life where you realized something or heard something that helped you see it in a different light? Because I think we all probably would say , "Oh yeah, grace is awesome. All for grace." But what helped you get to that point of being like, "Yeah, grace- Yeah ... that's what it's all about"?

So being raised in the country, A lot of my learning came from very conservative American theologians and it's what I grew up with, and it's what I knew. And once I started getting out of the country and away from just people that all thought the same way, I got exposed to different ideas and different ways of looking at things and like, "Well, no, let's reason through this. Let's make sense of this." And I come to realize just how closed-minded I was as an individual and how I was so sure that what I believed was right. ,  I, I would-- I was so judgmental. I was like, uh, I'm very ashamed to admit it, but I was, I was so judgmental. I was judgmental of, you know, I looked at men and women as very different, which we are, we are very different biologically. Uh, but in terms of what a woman can do and what a man can do and, And it went beyond discussions that happened about, like, church politics. Do you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Um, the way that I viewed the health message ... I was very strict on myself.

Um, there was a lot that I held onto, and

I guess you could say I was very  Unhappy.

Mm.

I didn't know it at the time though, that's the thing, and I think that's the illusion that, that happens when you're doing it. I thought things were good and I thought that this was where I was meant to be, but then like I'm so, I'm so much happier now.

So because of how I was and the way that I, I was towards myself, the way that I viewed others, when I really got to look at grace, when I looked at church history and looked at how Christians behave throughout the ages, and when I saw people doing things and, living in ways that I looked at as terrible, which now I'm just like, "Come on, man, let's be realistic."

Um-  Grace was a kind of a new concept because I didn't realize how works-based I was, growing up. And so when I experienced grace, it freed me in ways that I had never experienced before. I thought I had experienced that freedom, 📍 and I still sung songs to Jesus, and I still praised him for the work that he was doing in my life.

 But when I truly experienced grace on a new level, I think I finally got what people died for

how has that epiphany of grace or that realization of grace changed how you see other people? Has it resulted in you being able to see people more clearly or to be more aware of when you're putting labels onto people or judging them in certain ways?

Absolutely. 100% and times 10. I tell you why, because the first thing I do when I start judging someone, 'cause I do it too, I do it, I probably do it every single day. But the moment I do do it, I always, I've got this little mantra, if you will, that I tell myself every time I do it, and I say, "Broden, just remember what Jesus has forgiven you for. Pull your head in. Like, you are, you are in no position to cast shade on anyone." And that always sobers me up very, very fast because I try to be low-key about it, but, you know, I've got a history

yeah. Uh, well let's look back at the history of, Rahab, because I think a lot of the times when, when people hear or think of Rahab, typically the first thing they think of is prostitute.

So they slap a 📍 label on her-

Straight away. Um, which I think she is introduced as the prostitute Rahab, so you know, you can't blame us too heavily. But tell us about some of the labels, aside from that, that were placed on Rahab, and what was the context of those in her day and age?

 So I think it's no different to today in many, in many ways.  Even to the pagan, prostitution was still not a very respectable career path. So  that's one thing. But then to bring in Israelite people who had this high expectation, high morale, you know, "We're not like them guys," you know, them sorts of people.

Um, it was like a double, a double fold in terms of negative outlook upon someone like her. So not only was she, a pagan,  a prostitute, but-- Oh, my days. My cat, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to stop.

. .  No, you're fine. I didn't notice till you said something, so. .

broden, I like that even on the cardboard box in the background it's says Grace

Oh, yeah

our podcast listeners won't be able to see, But when Broden just got up to move his cat, um, I noticed there was packing boxes in the background that said Grace. Very on theme

I know it is. Even

I've actually got a few in here

All right

 So you were saying the Israelites were kind of like, " We're better than her," sort of thing, or, "We're better than that."

Yeah.

That kind of 📍 mentality

 I think let's, let's kind of unpack Rahab's story a little bit. Let's refresh people's memory, just so they understand, her story a bit more.

Yeah. So Rahab belonged to a city, um Jericho, and well, I've read a lot that they were connected to, like, the Philistine-type thing, like a very similar type of people. But basically the story goes that spies came in because God was gonna give them this land where Jericho was, and then she took the spies in, and she gave them safety when they were being hunted because they got called out, and she was just straight up.

She's like, "We've, we've all heard stories about what your God has done. He's separated the sea, and He's done all these miracles, and He's looked after you guys for so long. We all know that God is with you."  And she admitted that everyone is freaking out, and she was just like, "So I know you're gonna come here, and you're gonna take over, and I wanna be with you guys when you do that.

Like, I don't... I'm happy to change." And I mean-  The, the v- it's a very, very small number, I believe, that are in these lines of work that she was in that do it because they really want to do it.

Yeah.

sometimes it's just all you can do. And I do believe that when she looked at an opportunity to make change, she was a wise woman. She took it

 yeah, I think that's the important thing to remember with anyone who we put labels on is it's, there's usually a lot more to the story than we think. It's usually not just like, "Oh, yeah, they just became a drug dealer," or, "They just became a prostitute,"

It's usually not as simple as that. But I think it's interesting when we look at who God chooses in the Bible we see it's often usually not the people who you expect. Like, it's usually not the priests who are doing everything right that God uses to bring about His mission

📍 or, Yeah

It's usually the people who are, like deeply, flawed or they have these labels on them or they're unexpected. Odd candidates

I suppose.

Yeah. Honestly, sometimes I wonder why. I think at the end of the day, obviously everyone that has been picked that we know their story, they've, they've pulled through and they've come through all right. But  he uses broken people, and I think the reality is, is that we're all broken to an extent.

And it's just that these individuals have labels. Like every single person in the Bible has labels. And I think at the end of the day, what this comes back to, at the end of the day, is heart posture. That's all it comes back to. I mean, ta-take for example, and I don't mean to digress away from Rahab, but let's, if we just for a minute look at David and we look at King Saul.

Yeah.

Right? Look at the actions of David. He lied to a guy who was very faithful to him, sent him in, murdered him, stole his wife. Text implies force there as well

mm.

And then there's the whole forgiveness thing and David, heart after a God's own. You know what I mean? But then you read about Saul, and yeah, Saul, Saul did a few things, but he just, you know, left some, some cows and some sheep alive and...

What I'm getting at is when you compare the two,  I can tell you right now in today's standards who is more evil  according to morals.

 Mm.

but who did God show favor to? The one who had the right heart posture. And so the person that I compare Rahab with is a guy named Achan. And they definitely had different heart posture

Yeah, tell us about this guy 'cause I've actually, before reading your story, I hadn't actually heard about him before.

Achan or Achan, however you wanna say it, um, I'm gonna go with Achan. He basically was a man in God's people. He was part of the tribe of Judah, and this individual was there when the conquest took place, when Jericho's walls fell. And when that happened, God made it very clear to Joshua and his people, and he said, "You haven't done the work here.

You're not the reason why these walls have fallen. All you did was walk around." And he goes, "So therefore, spoils of war," which was a thing back in those days,  he said, "The spoils of war don't go to you because you didn't do the work. They come to me, and they go into my storehouse, my treasury."

Mm.

And so that's, that's what was supposed to happen.

But the story goes that this individual named Achan, decided that, "Oh- I might take some of the gold and some of the silver, and that robe looks mighty, mighty nice, and it would look very good on me." And so he decided to take that as well. And so the story goes, he dug a hole in the base of his tent,  and he hid the stolen goods.

 And he ended up getting found out. They cast lots, and unfortunately, 'cause it's a bit, it's a bit of a horrid story, but not only did Achan lose his life, but his whole family was wiped from the line of Judah. They were taken out. Yeah

and I believe he did confess eventually, but by that time it was a little too late perhaps.

Yeah. And I think that's all it was, it was actually a forced confession.

Mm.

It wasn't something that he willingly really came out and said. Picture it like this: Joshua is standing there, you've got the 12 tribes of Israel there, and each time they cast lots, "Oh, we're going to the tribe of Judah."

Okay. So the other 11 are like, "All right. That's not us. Good." Because they're like, "Who's done this?" You know, because God said, "Someone among you has stolen." And so they were trying to find who it was 'cause no one was coming forward. So those other tribes are out, but then Judah's left, and then they would cast lots again, and they would be pulling...

This is just how they did it. It's how God gave answers. And then it went all the way down to Achan's very family, and it was only then that he came out and he was like, "Yes, I've done it. It was me."

Yeah, interesting. Okay, so what you get when you look at the story of Rahab and Achan, the biggest thing that I guess you kind of noticed was the difference in their heart postures.

 Yes. Yeah. That-- well, the thing that really connects their stories is the contrast. So we often, and I don't wanna get too technical because this stuff is technical for the unlearned in this stuff, I guess I should say. It confuses me as well,

yeah.

Um, but we've got these things that we call parallels, one example is like Moses is a classical guy that we look at parallels.

So many things that he did, were exactly what Jesus did, and there's just these Christ-like... We call him a type of Christ, right? There's a lot of parallels. But there's also contrasts which, well, is basically the opposite, but they're still the same, but the opposite. And so Achan's story and Rahab's story is quite different, but they still meet up in contrast.

Uh, uh, I'll give you an example. Um, Rahab hid spies under flaxseed, but then Achan hid stolen goods underneath his tent.

Yep. Okay.

And 'cause it all happens around the same story. And the, the best thing that I found when I was actually looking into this, 'cause I was noticing these connections, was the fact that Achan was in the tribe of Judah.

 And guess what tribe Rahab was grafted into?

 The tribe of Judah?

Yes, good job. 📍 Yeah. Um, so I was like, "Oh, wow," like you can tell too the way that it's written that the writer definitely wanted you to make this connection, I believe.

 Hmm. That's really cool. I'd be curious to know how this whole idea has, impacted, I suppose, how you've invited people into things or your experience in the church.

'Cause m- I guess my perspective is when you go to church or when you're in church leadership, we choose people based on the fact that they've agreed to the 28 fundamentals and been baptised and live a good moral-... 📍 life essentially.

And we typically don't invite people into, positions or serving roles if, you know, if they were a prostitute or if they were a drug dealer or if they struggled with, any sins in any way. So like how do we be more like Jesus within the church in these situations?

Or with people who are living in obvious sin, what do we do? Because, you know, there's obviously people who are in leadership as well who have, like you said, they're still sinners. They have their things. So where do we draw the line and how do we invite people into that space?

I think first thing is that we need to acknowledge is that we also live in a society where-- So f- for me, for instance, a very good example is the sin of gluttony, right? And you know, a guy my size, and it sounds horrible to say it, but yeah, like I've struggled with gluttony clearly. Like I didn't get this way from fasting every week.

But the thing is, society is set up in such a way that the food that we have the pressures of life, people overeat. Like we're known for it in the Western world. And so I guess, the thing is what makes that one acceptable? But then we look at somebody who maybe is living in a home outside of marriage, which is also, in many ways, a necessity for people to live whether it's house sharing or whatever it is.

Um, but how do you, how do you navigate that? And to-- I'm not gonna lie, I don't have answers to 📍 that. And there's a lot of questions that I have. Like why are we so strict on not eating a steak,  but then we will fill our tables filled with sugar and cakes and all this stuff after a luncheon. Like completely undoes those stir fries and gluten steaks that we just ate at lunch.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, I think a lot of the time we are walking contradictions without realizing it

Yeah

.    And I just think that these are the conversations that we avoid that we just need to have, and it's just like, well, come on, let's just, let's be logical on this. A certain person said that there's things that we're gonna have to learn, relearn, forget,  and that is so true in life. And there's things that we as a church have down pat, but there's things that we need to revisit.  And I'm in no way saying permit people with, sin struggles and that, and just, like, give a free card.

That's not what I'm getting at. but at the same time, we do need to come from a place of grace. Jesus hung with sinners. He hanged out with them. That was his whole ministry. Yet how many Adventists are comfortable to sit around a few people that are having a beer?

 Not many.

 Not many.

And these are the discussions we need to have, and it's just like, guys, let's do Jesus' ministry and be more graceful and loving to people.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I think part of what you're also saying in your article is this idea of bringing things to the light.

Um, and some people's things are in plain light, they don't need to be brought to the light, they're kind of obvious. And then other people's, they need to be brought because, you know, they're more hidden things. But I think that's, that's obviously a difficult thing to do. And I would say probably especially for pastors, that's quite difficult because of the expectations that they have and because of the people looking up to them They have certain standards that they're supposed to abide to.

Yeah.

But I'd be curious to know, because I guess you're someone who seems quite open about sharing your things . Has that been something you've had to learn how to do over time how have you gotten to that place where you feel comfortable, expressing things or bringing things to the light? 

look, I think like being a pastor doesn't mean that I've arrived, it just means that I'm trying to walk honestly. That's the way I kind of view it. And yeah, you know, the elder or the deacon who's, struggling with, uh, watching certain things on the internet that they shouldn't be, can get away with something like that.

Whereas a guy like me who wears this out openly to everybody, there's no hiding from it. And, but it's also, it's also the fact that there's no hiding from it that has forced me into a space where I need to, look at this differently. I'm not gonna walk around and pretend that I can do things when I can't. And I just think that

this-- look, the, the struggle, all I can say is that the struggle is so real when it comes to pastors, how we're perceived. In the Western cultures, I don't really think it's so much the pedestal.

 Mm-hmm.

Like, the young typical white Aussie guy is not gonna come up to you being like, "Oh, pastor, pastor," you know what I mean?

It's typically some guys from other countries where the pedestal is there. But the thing that is relevant, I find, is the expectation. And the expectation isn't just hard on me, it's also hard on my family. And I literally just spoke to my church about this. I'm like, "You know, this life isn't bliss for us technically." "'Cause all of you don't only just watch me, but you're watching my kids, you're watching my wife, you're watching how we behave." You know? We've all heard those terms, "That's not how a pastor's family should behave," or, "That's not..." Yeah, like these are real, real pressures.

Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah. And it's, I think it's something that people just automatically do. They don't really think of the ramifications that has on you and your family

Yeah, absolutely

 So when looking at the story of Rahab and Achan, Achan, I forgot his name- what is kind of the thing that you hope people will remember and take away in looking at their story?

I think there's a part of me that,  that feels bad for Achan, because I've also hidden to the place where it's not until I'm forced out. So in that sense, I can connect with him. But I think what these stories show is the contrast of forgiveness and righteousness, and justice, and well, a lack of repentance.

 And so you've got this grace justice kind of thing going on. And the thing that I love about them ultimately is that the cross tells us  that, that mercy and justice  aren't separate. As a matter of fact, they actually meet. And I think that what we need to take away from the idea of these two stories coming together, is that it goes hand in hand.

It shows you on one hand a God who is just but so full of grace and mercy because as the story goes, right? Rahab ended up becoming a direct descendant of Jesus

 his great-great-grandma, right?

 Uh hu- yeah, 100%. Like how awesome is that? Like, to go from what Israel would consider... And it's, it's amazing because Israel themselves missed this.

Very cool. Like,

Even in Jesus's day, they, they missed this sort of thing, and  this woman who was down here was ultimately put up here. And all it was, it wasn't because she was good, it wasn't because she didn't struggle and that she wasn't human. It was because she came to the feet of Jesus and she opened herself to him.

Mm.

She opened up her heart. She confessed her faults, you know. She showed that repentance, and that's, evident in the fact that she ended up getting given what she got given.  The danger is   We've all got a little Achan in us. That's the danger.  And so what I really wanted to do was challenge the reader to ask the question, what labels, first and foremost, what labels do you put on people?

What labels do you put on yourself? And how strong is the Achan in you?  Because Achan was part of the church, guys. He was part of the church, and he ended up being the one that didn't get the grace. Not because it wasn't there for him, but because he ended up rejecting it.

 Yeah.

 So, where you are doesn't determine where you're gonna be

awesome. I think that's a good place to land. We'll leave people with that thought of where is the Achan in you? Um, no, much more than that, you so much Broden for your vulnerability and for sharing your story and for writing for us on Rahab., Really enjoyed your thoughts, and I'm sure people will be blessed by it.

So thank you again. We'll leave

 Thanks, Dave. Blessings. Bye