Living Covenant

Welcome to the Living Covenant Podcast, where we journey through the messy human stories of the Old Testament explore what it means to live in covenant with a promise keeping God. I'm your host, Zanita. Let's dive in.

Cora, welcome to the Living Covenant Podcast,

thank you.

Now people might soon pick up from your accent that you are not from Australia. Do you wanna tell us a bit about yourself and what brings you here to Australia?

Yeah. I am Cora. I'm from the United States, Tennessee in particular. Yeah, I'm here in Australia 'cause I did the Arise Program, like a three month, kind of like a Bible program where you get to learn more about God and get to experience community and outreach and yeah.

Very cool. And is this your first time to Australia?

Yeah.

Have you learned anything about Australia that you weren't expecting or something that you've been surprised by?

People don't wear shoes. That's not a thing. Back home. No. Like when I go to the grocery store and I see like bare feet, I'm like, okay.

Yeah. Even when you go to Sydney, that's not really a thing really. Or Brisbane people are like, yeah. People down there on the Gold Coast, they don't wear shoes. But I think it's cool. It's like relaxed. It's very chill. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Now you were one of the last people who we brought onto this Living Covenant series, and I think by the time I had met you, we had already kind of dished out most of the characters, so you didn't get much of a choice. I think I gave you, like Jonah, Aaron, and someone else, but you chose Aaron out of those options.

And I think Aaron is someone that we know a little bit about. Like we know he's Moses brother. We know he was kind of responsible for the golden calf. But what did you learn about Aaron that you didn't already know?

Yeah. I think for me too, like reading these stories and this passage of scripture, like Moses is always the one that stands out for good reason. But I think going back and reading over this story, Aaron was there with him through a lot of it, and I think just going back into it with that lens of looking for Aaron through the story, it's like he was actually right there with Moses going through most of it.

But I think one thing. That kind of stood out. I didn't realize he was 83 years old. At what point when he passed or when he, when he was speaking to Pharaoh, when they were calling the Israelites out and stuff. Yeah. So I didn't realize that he was like later on in his life during that.

I think something too, this might sound kind of funny, but I didn't really realize that he was a slave, if that makes sense. While he was in Israel, like he grew up a slave and that's all he knew. And then,  unlike his brother. Yeah. Yeah. But I think something too is, he had a personal faith. Because he was so old when he was actually being used by God to call them out. Like he had to have had his whole entire life developing that personal faith throughout his time as a slave.

I think that's such a good point because obviously Moses is the star. The one that kind of gets the fanfare and like you said, for good reason. He had to do some really difficult things in leading all of the Israelites. But I think we often don't think about the people who were around him, who were backing him, who were supporting him, and Aaron definitely would've been that person. I don't know if Moses would've been able to endure everyone's grumbling, endure all the difficulties. If he didn't have any support around him.

Yeah. It's true.

Now you started your piece by pointing out something that I'm sure all of us who have grown up hearing Bible stories can relate to. You know, we hear these wild stories and it makes us wonder, is it possible for me to experience something like this? Do these things actually happen anymore? And I think that's something that we grapple with as children and as we become more mature in our faith. And you mentioned that Aaron is one of these individuals in the Bible who we see experience these crazy miracles. What do we know about Aaron's life and what were some of those miraculous things that he experiences?

I think most of it is the things that moses also experienced, but kind of going back to like when Aaron was called, God called him to go into the wilderness to meet Moses and like, I think that stood out to me that it was that personal relationship with God that Aaron had.

And even that it took a lot of faith to be like, okay, I'm going out into the wilderness now and. To go meet Moses at the beginning of the whole thing. Yeah. Had they had any interactions  from when Moses was a boy to that point? I don't know. It's not really mentioned. Yeah. And that's something that kind of stood out to me too was like, did he know where he was going? Did he have to ask permission to leave to go meet Moses? Did he have to like sneak out? But I think. Nonetheless, he heard God's call and he was willing to follow. And then even when he went and met up with Moses, he still had the decision to make, to follow that conviction of oh, God is speaking to Moses and he wants to use us to do this thing.

Mm-hmm.

so it's like he knows he's not the main guy who's carrying out the mission, but he still has a really important part to play.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think there's actually an idea in psychology about this, like we usually focus on the leader, right? But research on leadership actually points out that the first person who follows the leader often has more influence. On where the others join and others have confidence in the leader, which I think is really fascinating

that's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

And I don't know if Aaron was that second leader, but if it's true that he went out to the wilderness to go and find him, it sounds like he was kind of supporting him right from the get go.

yeah.

In your article you said that God called Aaron to be his mediator, and his high priest. Do we have any idea what that means or what that would've looked like?

Well, I think God wants to dwell with us and he wanted to dwell with them during that time as well. And so Aaron was to kind of, to serve as his mediator between God and the Israelites and performing sacrifices and the ritual, the rituals for atonement, for the people's sins.

And yeah, I think all of that points towards Jesus as our, high priest in heaven.

He is the one who has made the sacrifice for us and for our sins. And in order to be right with God and close with God, like the wages of sin is death, and so the fact that Jesus died for us makes it possible for us to be able to be in relationship with God. So Jesus as our high priest, like he's the one who's mediating for us, right? He's the one who  we go to when we mess up to find that atonement.

Right. So Aaron was kind of appointed to be like the human bridge, the guy in the middle who is helping people connect with God

Yeah.

And so at this point we see Aaron is in good standing with God. He's a obeying God. He's going into the wilderness to meet Moses. He's been made his mediator. But is there another side to Aaron.

Like we know the struggles that Moses goes through, but what are some of the struggles that we see Aaron deal with?

well faith and then also people pleasing a little bit as well. Even though God had like literally done all of these miraculous things and all these crazy things in his own life, and like he experienced those things and saw those things with his own eyes, um, and like knew his identity in Christ, he was like, I'm the high priest. He knew all that, but even when it came down to it, like in moments of weakness, he still messed up and I think maybe lacked a little bit of faith, but then also cared a lot about other people's opinions.

Yeah. This is why I love exploring these Old Testament characters so much because we see them do these amazing things for God, but then we also see this really human side that so many of us can relate to. And I think people pleasing is probably something that, again, most people at some point in their lives have struggled with.

I've struggled with it. You mentioned in your piece that you really struggled with it. But why do you think it is that even when we know our identity in God, even when we love him, even when we've seen him do amazing things in our lives, we still really struggle with that temptation to please people.

Yeah, I think it's something that I really struggle with. In our day to day, like interacting with other people is like what we see and experience all the time.

And like Aaron, when God was up on the mountain, and Moses was up on the mountain.  Not right there physically like with them, sometimes it's easy for us to take our eyes off of that bigger picture. We just try to find our identity in other people or happiness and joy and Yeah.

it's like as soon as we take our eyes off, God, as soon as we lose our focus, that urge to please people kind of naturally kicks in again.

 Yeah.

What are some of the things that you have done in your life that have been helpful for you. Has there been any kind of, I don't know, mindset, mantra, bible verse,  advice that you have learned along your journey that have helped not continuously fall into that pattern of people pleasing?

I think definitely. Like I'm still learning this. But really just trying to find my identity in Christ and like being rooted in that. And also like maybe more on the practical side, I think every other person is entitled to their own opinions and their own thoughts. And I think a lot of times with people pleasing, we kind of create this narrative in our head of what we think the other person is thinking or wanting or needing.

And then we kind of act according to that idea. Yeah. Yeah. When that's not even reality. And so I think a lot of times, it's helpful to think like, okay, that person, like everybody has their own opinions and they're entitled to that and so am I, and to not let that dictate how we live.

And instead remembering like God is the one that we are living for and, yeah.

Yeah, people pleasing often isn't about what others are actually asking, all of us, but it's the story that we tell ourselves about what they might be thinking. And I guess what you are saying is that when our identity is anchored in Christ, when we know who we are as children of God, we are kind of free from that pressure. And I guess that's why it's important to constantly be reminding ourselves of our identity in God

yeah.

I had love to tie this in with Aaron's story in the Bible and just dig a little deeper into that. Um, Aaron's faith journey is a bit of a roller coaster. He has moments where he's walking closely with God. He's obeying God. He is listening to God. He's being used by God. But then seconds later he's questioning things and falling into these people. Policing trap. How do we see him respond in these moments where he falls short or where he does the wrong thing when he is questioning things, when he is doubting the Lord, when he is falling into people pleasing. And what are the consequences of his actions? Is he quickly repenting, quickly changing gears? Quickly, you know, turning back to God or is there a bit of a patent to his behavior that consequences to his behavior?

Definitely. I think with the whole golden calf situation. Um, like people died because of that. And that's kind of heavy. But I think in that moment it almost seems like he was torn between knowing what to do and being responsible to God, but then also like wanting to please other people and finding himself in that conflict and being like, ah, what do I do?

And as a result of that, like as the result of his own sin and his own decision to not obey what he knew was right. Yeah. Like in that moment, he could have chosen to say, you know what, we're not gonna do this. And the people would've been angry for a moment, but then they maybe would've gotten over it.

Like, we don't know. But since he was like, okay, we'll try to like please everyone here, some people actually ended up dying as a result of that. Which is kind of, that's a huge consequence. And then also in that. same story, they also suffered a plague because of it as well.

And then with the whole situation with his sister, she also got leprosy from it.

I think that's often the case. Often small decisions, small actions can have such big consequences more than we would ever imagine, because they lead to other things. You know, the first time we do something, it's always a really big deal, but the more we do it, it almost, like softens our conscience.

It's true. Or we try to rationalize our decisions and then we're like, oh, it's not that bad. It's not that big of a deal. And then it kind of gets out control. And I think that's kind of seen with the whole calf incident as well, where it's like they knew that God was the one that rescued them, but then they're like worshiping the calf and like everyone knew that. But then you're kind of like justifying it and yeah.

Aaron was probably really torn as to what to do in a lot of these situations because of course he wants to be loyal and faithful to God, but there are a lot of people who are turning to him, who are relying on him, and I think sometimes in the absence of answers, in the absence of hopes, things can become unclear and we can start to question what God is doing.

Aaron was probably. You know, trying to please the people for somewhat good reasons, to help them. To meet their needs. He probably wanted them to continue to respect him. As a leader, we don't really know. easy for us to just be like, well Aaron clearly did the wrong thing. Aaron clearly disobeyed God. But I think unless we are in his situation, we can't assume that we would've done any different. And not saying that what he did was right, not excusing everything he did, but I think some things are just a bit blurrier than what they seem on the outside.

Yeah.

I think the thing here is how do we see Aaron respond and what does that teach us about how we should respond when we do realize that we've done the wrong thing?

Because I think sometimes when we do the wrong thing, it can be a real opportunity for us to then, you know, make amendments, admit things, humble ourselves. Ask for forgiveness and all of this stuff. So how does Aaron respond in these situations?

Yeah. That's something that definitely stood out to me a lot from just his whole life is that since he was the high priest and he made this big of a mistake and the way that he was able to accept the forgiveness and be humbled in that and to continue on in the role, which it could have been easy for him to be like so caught up in the shame and the guilt and like, oh, I made this horrible mistake and what are people wanna think and how can I possibly do this role now that I did this?

And to kind of get focused on that. But it's really beautiful how God, like it's so much more about God than it is about us. Or Aaron or his mistakes. And it's more about the fact that God is willing to work with  us who are broken people who make mistakes all the time. And yeah.

Yeah, so I guess some situations we seem really humble himself and turn back to God and ask for forgiveness, but not in all situations, right? Like how do we see him respond after Moses comes back?

Well, Moses comes back down the mountain and he's like, what's going on here? And God is like, To Aaron and the people after like their collective mistake. God is like,

look. Make your decision either with me or you can choose to not be with me. And God is like, he's wanting to continue, he's wanting to keep moving forward and aaron chooses to accept that and to humble himself and be like, yep, I made a mistake. I wanna keep going and serving you. Yeah.

What do we see from that point onward in his story? Does he have a happy ending when he passes away? Is he in good standing with God? Does he completely lose the plot? What do we know of the rest of Aaron's story?

Well actually, if I'm not mistaken, I think like even his death is the result of another mistake. Because right at the border that they were gonna go into of like the promised land, Moses and Aaron kind of misrepresent God and then they both die as a result of that. Which is kind of hectic.

That's true. Moses and Aaron, they don't miss out on the promised land because God suddenly turns on them. But because they act out in anger and take credit instead of pointing back to God. And I think as leaders who kind of stood in for God before the people. That really mattered. And so, yeah, I think the Bible, says that they still die in peace. They're still called God servants, which shows that God is really gracious, but that he takes leadership very seriously. And he takes our representation of him very seriously. so that's kind of crazy. Yeah.

Yeah.

Tell us Cora a little bit more about your own experiences with this people pleasing stuff. Was there like a certain event in your life or a certain period or pattern that kept coming up that helped you identify that people pleasing was even something that you did?

Because I think a lot of people can just kind of subconsciously do that without even recognizing that a lot of what drives them is trying to please people and all of that.

I think I definitely have struggled with it a lot throughout my whole entire life, but I think coming to Jesus and getting to know him more and like when you come into that relationship, he definitely shows us things about ourselves and we're like, oh, okay.

But yeah, I think a lot of times it's easy to find like safety in, ' cause I don't, I'm not a fan of being in conflict. So a lot of times it's like wanting to avoid anything and kind of being out of the way. But I think God calls us to so much more than that. Yeah.

I think that's a really good point. And not wanting to be in conflict is also not a bad thing either. Like Aaron, if you look at his situation, he might have just trying to have been avoiding conflict with this whole calf thing.

Yeah.

As you've explored and unpacked Aaron's story, is there something that has particularly stood out with you or stuck with you, that you've applied or taken into your own life.

Hmm. Yeah. I think his willingness to keep going. first of all, his willingness to be used to let God use him in this whole situation and like to let his life be used for God and by God and through God. But then also like, yeah, just as we've been talking about his life isn't perfect and he gets to experience all these cool things, but then he also is so human and he messes up.

But I think just his willingness to keep going and to keep pursuing God and trusting him and serving him despite like his own stuff and mistakes.

  keep going and keep trusting. I often think it would've been hard to be Aaron because obviously God is using him, but it's not like he's using, like Moses, he's not the main guy. He's the one who's been a slave. He's the one that's had to go through all this really difficult stuff while Moses has just lived it up.

And so I think we see this really humble side of Aaron.

We see this right at the beginning where God calls Moses to lead Israel out of Egypt, and he was to take the elders of Israel to Pharaoh and Moses responds and saying like, God, I can't talk. As if he has like a speech impediment   or just extreme anxiety. And rather than God miraculously give Moses a silver tongue, God connects him to Aaron, and Aaron speaks on Moses' behalf.

Like he becomes the front man. And I think that's the cool thing about Aaron is that he must have been really humble to be in that position for Moses and not be the one in the limelight, not the one getting all the praise, not the one who's wearing the leader's hat.

Yeah. It's actually true. Like It kinda goes back to him having his own personal faith of being like, okay, this is my role that God has called me to do. And maybe Moses has a different role and that's different, but this is what God has called me to do and kind of focusing on that and Yeah.

Instead of comparing or complaining or something. Hm.

Yeah. Or getting caught up in that.

I actually resonate a lot with Aaron. And I've found that just reading through his story. So I think a lot of it resonates and makes me wanna keep going back and like reflecting on it more. But yeah, I think just. His ability to continue with God and allow himself to be humbled and to continue. Like his willingness to serve the bigger picture of like God's mission versus Yeah. Getting caught up in his own stuff.

what I really love about this series is that we explore these individuals who, on the surface seem quite unrelatable, but they have these high and low moments just like us. And you said in your article that like Aaron, you have found yourself wandering in the wilderness in a constant process of learning and unlearning.

And while it's awesome to look at these individuals and their stories and their actions. It's also really awesome to pause and be like, well, what do I learn about the character of God through Aaron's story or through this individual story? And so I'd love to know what that has been for you. What have you learned about God through Aaron's story?

Mm, yeah. I think it's just so beautiful that God, first of all, is sees them in their slavery and like sees Aaron in his situation and he knows his life and his affliction, but then he's also like willing to call him out and God cares so much about us and wants to dwell with us and be with us.

And like, throughout his whole life and what he did for the Israelites, and his faithfulness too, like god made that covenant and that choice, and he remained faithful to that despite Aaron and Moses or despite anybody like God made that commitment and he's like faithful to see it through, and I think that's really beautiful and comforting when we look at our own lives and sometimes yeah, things feel overwhelming or our mistakes feel overwhelming or maybe we are struggling with people pleasing and that feels so incredibly overwhelming, but God is able to work despite that and he wants to take us from somewhere that's really bad to somewhere that's really a lot better and really good. Even if that means going through the wilderness experience and kind of learning and unlearning like a lot of things.

I really love this verse that you finished your article on. I think it's so relevant and really paints a picture of Aaron's journey. It is Hebrews four 16,  therefore come boldly to the throne of grace. So we may obtain mercy and find grace to help us in times of need. Yeah, I think that imagery of coming to the throne of grace is something that we see Aaron do a lot in his story. Um, and so that's just, yeah, an awesome verse to finish on.

okay.

We will leave it there. But thank you so much again, Cora, for sharing with us and writing for us. If you wanna read Cora's article, you can find it on the record website or in the Living Covenant book with the rest of them. It is titled walking With God through Mistakes and Miracles and.

I think that's the encouragement I'm taking from this is  knowing that I am human and that I will make mistakes, but to continue walking with God through those mistakes.

Yeah.

Thanks again, Cora. It's been great to have you on.

Thank you.